Update: I notice that according to the above mentioned Wikipedia article France did have a powerful radical and socialist party at one time. The article says the following about that. "Until World War II, Radicals were a strong political force in France, embodied by the Republican, Radical and Radical-Socialist Party which was the most important party of the Third Republic."
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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30
How the Good work of Russell became the curse of the Watchtower today
by Terry inthe greatest benefit to come from jehovah's witnesses was the introduction of honest investigation into the.
claims of christianity based on the bible.. exposing error was the gimmick.. replacing doctrine or ritual with door to door activity was the greatest failure to follow truth where it leads.. .
mainstream religion in pastor russell's day was set in stone.
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30
How the Good work of Russell became the curse of the Watchtower today
by Terry inthe greatest benefit to come from jehovah's witnesses was the introduction of honest investigation into the.
claims of christianity based on the bible.. exposing error was the gimmick.. replacing doctrine or ritual with door to door activity was the greatest failure to follow truth where it leads.. .
mainstream religion in pastor russell's day was set in stone.
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Disillusioned JW
Correction: In my prior post where I said "... on pages 61 - 62 ..." I should have said "... on pages 62 - 63 ...".
The writer of page 63 of the Our Incoming WORLD GOVERNMENT ~ God's Kingdom seems to be confused (or intentionally misleading) as to the meaning of the word "democratic". I say that because right after the sentence of "The making of governments democratic by revolutions or otherwise has led on to radical proletarian forms of government" on page 63 the writer says the following.
"And these latter stand in an uncompromising opposition to the ironlike Seventh World Power, the Anglo-American Dual World Power. Till now the two forms of rulership have managed to live alongside each other, but there has been no real marriage between them. The radical, proletarian governments and blocs may appear to be very strong and seemingly outmaneuvering the Anglo-American World Power in strength." The writer thus seems to be writing about the then communist block of countries, but the governments of those countries (though coming about by by violent revolution by the common people along with a leader of theirs) are not democratic. It should also be noted that shortly after the USA created their republic by having a violent revolution against Britain, France created their republic by having an even more violent revolution. That revolution largely came from the common people and though the revolution soon led to a reign of terror, its nation eventually became a stable democratic republic It did not become communist. During World War II the USA became an ally of it. Wikipedia says the following about it at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France . "France is representative democracy organised as a unitary, semi-presidential republic.[133] As one of the earliest republics of the modern world, democratic traditions and values are deeply rooted in French culture, identity and politics.[134] "
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How the Good work of Russell became the curse of the Watchtower today
by Terry inthe greatest benefit to come from jehovah's witnesses was the introduction of honest investigation into the.
claims of christianity based on the bible.. exposing error was the gimmick.. replacing doctrine or ritual with door to door activity was the greatest failure to follow truth where it leads.. .
mainstream religion in pastor russell's day was set in stone.
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Disillusioned JW
Terry, another excellent point you made is the following you said as the source of authority that the governing body relies upon.
"IT ALL RESTS MERELY ON THEIR OWN ASSERTIONS.
Mark this one fact and it all falls into place:
The fragility of the bible as a source authority must NEVER be allowed to be discussed!
Why?
It is the bundling of their own peculiar interpretions (under the guise of "mouthpiece") with BIBLE that is the engine that drives the Governing Body's authority.
If people ever really knew facts about the errancy of the Bible and started investigating on their on the house of cards would quickly tumble.
THE BIBLE MUST BE PROPPED UP NO MATTER WHAT!
The Governing Body presents itself as the champion of God's Word. In reality, they are the champions of their own crazy thinking."
In short (and I paraphrase), you correctly said that for the WT and its governing body (whom they themselves now say is exclusively the faithful and discreet slave) that "THE BIBLE MUST BE PROPPED UP NO MATTER WHAT!" That is why the WT literature has so often (going at least as far back as a volume of Russell's Studies in the Scriptures) condemned atheism and the theory of biological evolution. It even claimed and continues to claim that those ideas are doctrines of Satan the Devil. [For example see the following: The box on the bottom of page 95 of the 1981 WT book called "Let your Kingdom come".] It is like I said in a post about six days ago - "The Bible is an enabler for the WT religion!"
Likewise, the WT and the governing body need their readers and followers to believe in the existence of a literal Satan the Devil. That is so that the WT and the governing body can attribute ideas they dislike to Satan the Devil (and/or his demons) and thus scare away people from investigating those ideas with an open mind. Besides evolution and atheism, those ideas include higher criticism of the Bible, the idea that the best governments are those who derive their authority bottom up from the people (even the common people) instead of top down from God (allegedly) through a theocracy, and various other ideas which are taught in various colleges, and ideas taught by ex-JWs who criticize the WT.
For example notice how the WT conveys a a very negative disparaging idea of governments which derive their authority (or some of it) from the common people. [This is in contrast to the idea of the authoritarian divine rule of kings (and of other monarchs).] It is stated on pages 61 - 62 of the 1977 WT book called Our Incoming WORLD GOVERNMENT ~ God's Kingdom. There it says the following.
'Despite the fragile nature of "clay" of which the "offspring of mankind" are made, the trend of human rulership in these last decades of its existence has been in which direction? No, not to God the Creator of the animated "clay," but to the creatures of clay, to the common people, the "proletariat" as the ancient Romans called the lowest or poorest class of people who contributed nothing but offspring (proles) to the political State. The old traditional rulership has been obliged to listen more and more to the clamor of the common people for a share in governments over them.
56 However, there can be no marriage between the old aristocratic, authoritarian style of government and the common people who favor radical, thoroughgoing changes in government. No more so than there can be an amalgamation of iron with clay! The making of governments democratic by revolutions or otherwise has led on to radical proletarian forms of government.'
The book classifies the "American Republic, the United States of America" as an authoritarian government [and the book on pages 60-61 calls "the Anglo-American World Power ... the greatest world power of them all from a human standpoint."] That government (the U.S.A) came into existence as a democratic republic by a violent revolution (against Britain, a monarchy then ruled by a king), and in one of its founding documents it claims that its government derives its authority from the people, yet as quoted above the book disparages governments which come into existence that way! The book is trying to have it both ways and in so doing it contradicts itself.
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How the Good work of Russell became the curse of the Watchtower today
by Terry inthe greatest benefit to come from jehovah's witnesses was the introduction of honest investigation into the.
claims of christianity based on the bible.. exposing error was the gimmick.. replacing doctrine or ritual with door to door activity was the greatest failure to follow truth where it leads.. .
mainstream religion in pastor russell's day was set in stone.
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Disillusioned JW
Hi Terry. Today I am reading your posts of this 11-year old topic (which I found by doing a search on certain words) and I am impressed by what you wrote in this topic. I am especially impressed by your first post of this topic. You make an excellent point of saying that the WT's (and governing body's) doctrine of the faithful and discreet slave (at least of the core element of it) can be traced to an idea of Maria Russell (and to promotion of that idea by her). [Or, perhaps others associated with the Watchtower thought it up first, but she heavily promoted it, at least according the Proclaimer's book (If I recall correctly what it said about it).]
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After leaving the JWs
by punkofnice inhow do i view the world after leaving the jws?.
1. most politicians are disgusting filth.
political parties are disgusting filth.
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Disillusioned JW
Correction: In my post where I wrote "Year later he began ..." I meant to write 'Years later he began ...".
More info: A publisher of Bob Avakian's book (Avakian might be owner of the publisher) lists a book by Ardea Skybreak called THE SCIENCE OF EVOLUTION AND THE MYTH OF CREATIONISM: KNOWING WHAT’S REAL AND WHY IT MATTERS. I think it is probably an excellent book. Regarding Ardea the publisher says the following. "Ardea Skybreak is a scientist with professional training in ecology and evolutionary biology. She is a follower of Bob Avakian and an advocate of the New Communism which he has developed. ... From a very early age, she was encouraged to become a critical thinker and systematically trained as an intellectual with a wide and diverse range of interests and passions in a great many spheres of both arts and sciences. Skybreak has had a lifelong commitment to demystifying and broadly popularizing evidence-based science and the scientific method. ... In Skybreak’s view, the fact that large parts of humanity have been deprived of a scientific understanding and approach is a problem that is being further compounded in today’s world by the widespread politically motivated attacks on science. She argues that actively combating anti-science, and promoting the consistent application and broad popularization of the scientific method, is essential if we are to find the ways to interact appropriately with the whole of the natural world, and to radically reorganize human societies in keeping with the objective interests of all of humanity."
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After leaving the JWs
by punkofnice inhow do i view the world after leaving the jws?.
1. most politicians are disgusting filth.
political parties are disgusting filth.
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Disillusioned JW
peacefulpete, you made a great post! It is too bad that months ago I ceased being permitted on this site to mark posts "Like". [Nor, can I any longer mark any as "Dislike".]
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After leaving the JWs
by punkofnice inhow do i view the world after leaving the jws?.
1. most politicians are disgusting filth.
political parties are disgusting filth.
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Disillusioned JW
It is true that atheism is a core component of modern-day communism (at least the kind based upon the writings of the Karl Marx's, such as in his and Engel's Communist Manifesto), but atheism is one idea which communism got 100% correct!
I have read some communist literature (including the Communist Manifesto) and by far the best (to me) communist literature I have ever read is the book called AWAY WITH ALL GODS! - Unchaining the Mind and Radically Changing the World, By Bob Avakian. That book is so great I bought a used copy of it. There is very much truth in that book. [I either found that book at a local thrift store or at a book sale by the local friends of the local public library.]
By the way, according the Encyclopedia Britannica both of Karl Marx's parents were Jewish. The dad who was "a successful lawyer, was a man of the Enlightenment, devoted to Kant and Voltaire" and he converted to Christianity probably in order to keep his professional career. [See https://www.britannica.com/biography/Karl-Marx .] Karl Marx at the age of six years old became baptized as Christian. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, Karl Marx's "Jewish background exposed him to prejudice and discrimination that may have led him to question the role of religion in society and contributed to his desire for social change." Year later he began reading about the ideas of Hegel and eventually Karl Marx became and atheist.
The Britannica article says that Karl Marx learned of "... Bruno Bauer, a young lecturer in theology, who was developing the idea that the Christian Gospels were a record not of history but of human fantasies arising from emotional needs and that Jesus had not been a historical person. Marx enrolled in a course of lectures given by Bauer on the prophet Isaiah. Bauer taught that a new social catastrophe “more tremendous” than that of the advent of Christianity was in the making. The Young Hegelians began moving rapidly toward atheism and also talked vaguely of political action."
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After leaving the JWs
by punkofnice inhow do i view the world after leaving the jws?.
1. most politicians are disgusting filth.
political parties are disgusting filth.
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Disillusioned JW
Though many people, books, and web pages say it is "natural to humans to worship", such is not the case for me, at least not for invisible entities that I have no experience with. I've never seen, heard, felt, smelt, or had any other sensory experience of a god/God or spirit (nor have I detected any action which I consider to have been done by such), and thus it is not natural for me to worship such. When was a young child I had to be told (both by the WT literature, kingdom hall talks, and by my mother) to pray to Jehovah God at bedtime, during the start of every meal I have, to listen to prayers at WT/JW meetings (and I was conditioned to say Amen to prayers said out loud by other at such meetings), but I didn't like doing it. When I was a child I asked my mother why I have to pray. I wondered was the point and value of doing such so often. I wanted to not be required to pray to someone who newer communicated to me in any way I could discern at all. But, I continued to pray in all of those settings at least into my thirties (except maybe at bedtimes). During the last two years, or so, that I was assigned to pray out loud at the kingdom hall, I was thinking I wish I didn't have that assignment. That is because by then I had completely stopped believing that prayers in our modern times are ever answered by Jehovah God (even though I was still a ministerial servant at the time I was giving the public prayers).
If it wasn't for me being conditioned and trained and told to worship Jehovah, I never would have worshipped him and I still wouldn't have worshipped some other god-concept. either. Yes there were times when I prayed in hopes of getting help from Jehovah, but I would never had done such if I hadn't be told for years that I had to pray. If I hadn't been told over and over to believe in Jehovah (and in supernaturalism in general, namely Jesus, Satan, angels, and demons and in alleged actions by them) I would not have believe din him (and them) after age 8 and perhaps I never would have believed in him (and them) - just as I never believed in Santa Claus, supernatural vampires, witchcraft (of kind was said to be without the help of Satan and/or demons), etc. Now a days, to me the idea of becoming an atheist as young child was a natural birth right which was taken away from me by the religious culture (especially in my case, taken away me from the influence of the WT through my parents and directly upon me). As a baby I was born without belief in God (or gods) and thus I was born as an atheist (in the sense of having total nonbelief in God/god), and I if I hadn't been raised to believe in Jehovah God I would never ever had believed in any God/god. Atheism was my natural birthright, a precious gift from nature.
Yet because I had become so immersed in religion, due to the WT/JW religion's influence, it is hard for me to now completely stop studying religion (even WT literature). Now my studying of religion is solely as an intellectual exercise (to see what I can learn and put to use, such as to find evidence to tell to others that there is nothing supernatural). But I don't worship any more.
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Are Jehovahs Witnesses a cult?
by GoverningBody inthis question has been presented many times throughout the years.
somewhat recently, there has been much talk surrounding the "bite method" :.
"bite” stands for behavior, information, thought, and emotional control.. some examples were thrown at me, such as the decisions of who we associate with, discouraging any worldy media, encouraging our brothers and sisters to report any of our misbehaviours to the elders, our rejection of criticism on the truth, shunning etc.. what do we think about this?.
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Disillusioned JW
I think the article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult gives a useful perspective of ideas of what cults are, including what sociologists consider to be the types of groups that are cults. None of the sociological books which I have found (nearly all of which are college textbooks) which have a discussion of the topic of cults ever listed the Jehovah's Witnesses as a cult. Since sociologists are scientists (and since I highly value science and what scientists say of science) and since cults are a part of what their branch of science study, I thus think their view and definition of what a cult is is very important - much more important than the definition of modern human popular culture (and of the Christian apologetic literature [such as the book called Kingdom of the Cults] which label groups they disagree with as cults).
From time to time I have had a hard time deciding if the WT/JW religious sect is a cult. I never (thus far) considered it a cult, but sometimes I have wondered if it is a cult. I currently believe it is nearly a cult, especially after the governing body of the JWs began teaching that the faithful and discreet slave is exclusively them. Before I was baptized as a JW (and thus before age 18) I read an article by the WT Society which said the JW religion is not a cult and which stated some reasons for that view. I thought about what it said and I thought about my knowledge of religious groups which to me were/are definitely cults. I was thinking about this during the time I was trying to decide if the JW religion really was the true religion and if I should get baptized into it. [Or, maybe I read the article after I became baptized; I am not sure when but it think it was probably before I became baptized.] I concluded that the JW religion is not a cult, but if I had concluded it was a cult I would not have got baptized as JW for I did not want to ever join a cult.
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An upcoming Watchtower article saying if people Pioneer Jehovah will provide!
by LongHairGal ini saw the post on reddit and the thread got many responses..can anybody believe the religion is still saying this??
it has to be as plain as day that so many jws are poor and struggling today because they never got a career or decent job years ago.. sadly, there are still witnesses who believe money will fall from heaven if they are in the full-time ministry.
they expect some miracle to occur..but, we all know the truth: people in the congregation will be hit up for yet more money for another bunch of irresponsible people pursuing poverty.
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Disillusioned JW
The Bible is an enabler for the WT religion! That should tell you JW lurkers something about the Bible. When the WT makes statements saying Jehovah will provide for his people and when the WT quotes something from the Bible for support, they are oftentimes applying the Bible verses properly. The Bible actually does say that Yahweh/Jehovah/the LORD will provide for those who serve him. So JW lurkers, ask yourselves if something is wrong with some of the teachings of Bible.
Many of faithful Jews who went to Nazi concentration camps also began to realize that maybe something was wrong with the Hebrew Holy Scriptures (OT Bible) and that maybe their God (the LORD/YHWH) doesn't exist or doesn't care for them.
Think about these things JWs.